November 29, 2007: Arson and the Death of a Twin Son - Gil Minger

HEALING THE GRIEVING HEART
“Arson and the Death of a Twin Son”
Hosts:  Dr. Gloria Horsley and Dr. Heidi Horsley
With guest:  Gail Minger
November 29, 2007
G: Hello, I’m Dr. Gloria Horsley with my co-host
H: Dr. Heidi Horsley.
G: Each week, Heidi and I welcome you to Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope and conversation with those who’ve suffered the loss of a loved one and for healthcare professionals who work in this most difficult field.  And always the message is others have been there before you and made it, you can, too.  You do not need to walk alone.  If you’re listening to our Thursday live Internet show, please join Heidi and me on the show by calling our toll-free number, 1-866-472-5792, with questions or comments regarding the losses in your life.  These shows are archived on our blog, www.thegriefblog.com, as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org websites.  All shows can be downloaded on iTunes and the transcripts can be accessed through our blog, www.thegriefblog.com.  Well, good morning, Heidi.
H: Good morning, Mom.
G: I wanted to mention first to our listeners that on December 9th it is the Worldwide Candle Lighting for The Compassionate Friends and if you will go on www.thecompassionatefriends.org website, you can find out where candle lightings are going to be in your area.  It’s at 7:00 o’clock around the world.  Candles are lit for our children in remembrance.  We’ll be holding one here in Palo Alto, so if you’re in the Palo Alto area, please join me for our candle lighting here, and you can access that through The Compassionate Friends website.  Also, I wanted to suggest to people that we’re very interested in having our listeners send things to the blog.  Send us holiday kinds of things like favorite recipes, pictures or stories, your best Christmas, your funniest Christmas, advice, how to cope.  We’d love to get that and holiday poems, questions, anything you’ve got.  We would love to have you send to our blog and a picture of your loved one.  You may have a fun Christmas picture of your child that’s died or some family kind of things so we’d like to get that, wouldn’t we, Heidi?
H: Yes, and I think it’s so helpful to find out how people make it through the holidays.  Anything that can lighten your load or lighten your spirits and, like you said, to send in rituals for other people so that they can look at okay, how do other people make it through these days.
G: Absolutely.  So please join us and send in that information.  Well, Heidi, today we’ve got an incredible guest, Gail Minger, and Gail is quite the advocate, has been a wonderful advocate since the death of her son.  And I just wanted to mention an email before we get on to introducing Gail.  We had an email from Albert and he said thanks for the radio show.  He said it has helped my wife and me after the loss of our 19-year-old youngest son was killed in an automobile accident the 29th of September, 2007.  And Albert says that they listen to past and present shows each evening.  I never imagined there could be so much pain and suffering in the world until this tragedy struck us and why is always the question.  Isn’t that incredible, Heidi, why is the question?
H: Absolutely and unfortunately oftentimes we don’t ever have those answers.
G: Absolutely.
H: Why did this happen? Why did it happen to us? Why did it happen to the people we love?
G: And so I’m sure we’ll get into that with our guest today.  Would you like to introduce her, Heidi?
H: Sure, I’d be honored to.  Our topic today is “Arson and the Death of a Twin Son” and our Guest is Gail Minger.  Gail’s son, 19-year-old Michael, was killed in a fire at Murray State University in Kentucky in 1998.  One year later Gail met with the Governor of Kentucky and asked why universities were not required to comply with safety codes.  Finding his answers to be unacceptable, Gail decided to take action.  She felt that Michael’s death had been preventable and helped with legislation that changed the reporting of fire incidents and other crimes on college campuses.  It became landmark legislation known as the Michael Minger Act.  Gail does her work in Michael’s name as she can hear him say without hesitation, Mom, you need to do something to keep this from happening to others.  Welcome to the show, Gail.
GM: Thank you very much for having me.
G: It’s wonderful to have you on, Gail.  And Heidi and I have been just very, very impressed with the work you’ve been doing and the courage and energy.  I mean tell us about that.  How did you get propelled into this?  And you were also dealing with a lawsuit and all sorts of things, and we have our audience out there who have these same kinds of things.  They’re involved in the court things.  They’re involved in the loss, but first I should ask you to tell us about Michael.  He sounds like a wonderful kid.
GM: Well, he absolutely was.  Michael was a twin.  His twin sister, Melissa, is now a doctor of dental medicine and is presently in a residency program in St. Petersburg, Florida.  But Michael was my creative one, just very musical.  He sang with the American Boy Choir, traveled extensively, sang with the Boston Pops, just had a beautiful tenor voice and his dream was to become a radio/television broadcaster for sports.  And he really was a son that any mother would have been so proud to have.  He had learning disabilities, some cognitive challenges, but still wanted to go to college.  We never really were sure he could go to college but he actually maintained – when he died, he had a 3.936 GPA.
H: Oh, my goodness.
GM: And that was even higher than his more brainier, if you will, twin sister Melissa.  I mean she did very well, but Michael just felt like he had to work really hard to achieve, and he achieved beyond what we ever imagined that he could.  But he was just a delight, very polite, kindhearted, always looked to those that were more needy.  I knew he was very special prior to his death, but then after his death of course others wrote us and told us stories and things that we didn’t know even prior to his passing.  But it’s amazing how I would have never imagined me doing the things I’ve done or continue to do.  It’s just as you said.  It propelled me into these things.  It’s kind of laid at your feet and you just feel like, as I taught Michael and Melissa as little children, you have to do what you feel is right.  And I just knew that the things that were going on as far as safety compliance –
G: For our audience could we talk a little bit?  Now Michael – I’ll try to summarize it myself.  Michael was going to college and he had to be in the dorms.  There was no choice because of his disability, was that it?  Or everyone had to be
GM: Well, it’s required.  At this particular university and many colleges and universities across the nation, you are required to live in the dormitory setting freshman and sophomore years.
G: And you kind did not want him to do that.  I mean you felt that it may have not been the perfect place for him.
GM: Absolutely.  I wanted him to be and have the experience like everyone else and for others not to pick him out to be so different but to fit in a bit more.  And we wanted him to have that experience but I realized quite soon after him enrolling that it wasn’t all that we were told it was.  It had been rated the 11th safest school in the nation – and that’s a pretty unbelievable rating – but they had many, many problems.  And I noticed those and started to question things and Michael didn’t feel comfortable either and we worked to get him out of the dorm and we were not successful.  So short of removing him from that university, we felt like he only had three more months to live there in the dorm and then he could move off campus.  We already had a special place with an elderly woman very close to campus.  He rode his bicycle.  He did not drive a car because of his disabilities.  And we already had all of that worked out, but the school was relentless in making us follow the policy if he was going to continue there.  And unfortunately, as I said, he only had three months before he would have been eligible to move out of the dorm, and, when he returned for his sophomore year, he lived only three weeks and our worst fears and nightmare came true.
G: And that was because somebody lit a fire in the dorm.
GM: Yes, they started a fire, a person that was actually hired by the university as an extra safety hand around campus called the Racer Patrol.  And the individual was charged but unfortunately there was a hung jury so he’s never been re-tried and has never paid a day for his very seriously bad choices.
H: And so Michael –
GM: He did not intend to kill Michael.  He just set a fire.  It was the second fire in five days.
H: And Michael wasn’t able to escape because he was asleep in his dorm room, is that correct?
GM: Yes, he was sound asleep and he did wake up, though, and we know he had put a towel under his door because the smoke had been coming in from all areas and a lot of that due to the improper fire stopping.  As I said, the codes and safety codes that had not been complied with and were well-known by this university through their own inter-office memos that we were able to gain access to, but they absolutely knew about the problems for many years and did nothing about them.  And these are things parents cannot know when you’re visiting a university.  There are certain things that are behind the walls that you don’t have a clue, but when people tell you and give you their word that this is a safe campus and so forth and so on and you want to certainly believe that this is true.
G: What have you done with your anger?  Are you angry now?
GM: Oh, yes, I was for a period of time and once in awhile it pops through again when I see the complacency still today by some on some university campuses.  Not all but some still have a very kind of a haughty attitude really and just like don’t look at us.  We’re doing everything perfectly.  Well, I would tell every parent that may be listening if any university ever has that attitude, you need to run as fast as you can because every single university has issues.  It’s the ones that talk about them and tell you what they’re doing to correct them are the ones that you want to listen to.
G: Now I know we’ve got some angry folks out there who through different circumstances there’s been some kind of compliance.  What did you do with your anger early on?  How did you deal with it to help them?
GM: Well, at first I don’t know that I was anything but in a state of shock for many months, not really believing that this was real.  I mean you knew it but yet you didn’t know it, and I read all the books I could get my hands on and I really worked to, because of having Melissa also, to do what I needed to do if there is such a thing.  And really there isn’t.  We all grieve differently, but there seems to be some patterns to our grief.  But I just decided that knowing these things were wrong and finding more and more out with more questions that I asked and realizing oh, my goodness, this has been going on for a very long time.  Why hasn’t anyone done anything?  And I think that’s where I directed my energy.
G: How long did it take you before you started moving in that direction of taking action?
GM: Well, actually Michael died in September and it was January when the Legislature and I actually met with the Governor of the state and really wasn’t given very good answers, just a pat on the back, everyone thinking oh, what poor –
G: How did you get a hold of him?  That’s pretty amazing, isn’t it, Heidi?
H: It absolutely is.  Yes.
GM: Well, I’m pretty persistent and really wasn’t going to go away until I was let in the door.  That’s just kind of – I didn’t know any better at that point because I just didn’t have any sense except the grief that carried me forward and that anger, strength.  It’s like when people pick up a car off of someone.  You don’t know where you get that from.  It’s just there.
G: It’s really interesting to me, Gail, because some of our audience would not be ready to do anything in four months, but there are some people who go ahead and do things very early.  So I want to say to our audience out there, if you’re energized at four months to go out and do something, do it.  If you’re not – I mean there’s no model for this.
H: Right, whatever helps in healing.
G: Yeah, whatever helps for you.  If taking action is the kind of thing that helps for you, that’s a good thing.  Well, it’s time for us to go to break and one of the things that I want to say, and we’ll talk about it when we come back from break because I think it’s really key, is that Gail’s friend also has had a loss and she’s going to be leaving our show a little early so after break I want to talk to her about that loss and how having a loss after having your child die impacts you.  I’m your host Dr. Gloria Horsley and we’re coming up on break.  You can join our show by calling our toll-free number 1-866-472-5792 regarding the losses in your life or questions for our guest.  You can reach us through our blog, www.thegriefblog.com, and Heidi and I would love to have you go to our blog and give us some ideas about how you’ve coped with the holidays, recipes, pictures, stories.  Anything about your child and let’s have a celebration as well as helping others with their losses.  Stay tuned for more.
Well, Gail, I get so touched when Heidi read that about your son, thinking about Michael saying that you need to help others.  And you certainly have.  For people who are just joining us, Michael was killed in a fire as Heidi said and one of the things that’s come up for me, I can just feel it in my heart, is Michael as a singer.  During break you were talking about him singing in New York City.  Can you talk about that?
GM: Yes, he sang actually as a young boy choir member of the American Boychoir.  It’s kind of like America’s Vienna Boys’ Choir.  He sang with the Boston Pops.  He sang at St. Bartholomew’s in New York City, and I just was there a few weeks ago for a conference and attended that church and it was a choral service and there was a children’s choir singing and a men’s choir singing.  And it was just so beautiful and I stood there with tears streaming down my face, but as I left the church I was so filled and just actually skipping out of the church because I remember him standing there as a little boy at 10 years old singing on those marble steps.  And it was just a wonderful way to revisit and spend time with him through that memory.
G: That’s a wonderful thought, spending time with our children’s memory, isn’t it, Heidi?
H: Absolutely, and what a wonderful memory that you’ll have forever.
GM: Yes, absolutely.
G: Do you have tapes of his music?
GM: Yes, I do.  A lot of it is rehearsal tapes and things where they start over and over but it was one of the most beautiful things.  As I said, Michael died in September, the end of September, and in April he had been in a soiree because he took classical lessons and so forth.  We traveled quite a distance for him to do that and a parent of a young lady that sang a duo with him had taped it and after finding out about Michael’s death.  I got this package in the mail and opened it and to my surprise it was not only just his voice, it was a video where I could see him singing at this soiree.  And it’s just a treasured piece that I have so I do listen to him and it just does wonderful things for me to hear him.  It’s certainly sad sometimes because I know how beautiful his voice was and I wonder as a man how that would have even grown more, but I am so blessed to have those tapes and musical pieces to play sometimes.
G: Well, were you in New York for your advocacy work?
GM: Yes, I was.  I’m actually part of a group with the National Fire Sprinkler Association called Common Voices and it’s parents who have lost children in college-related fires mostly.  There are other members on the Board who have lost loved ones in fires, but there are three of us have sons that we have lost in college-related fires.  So it’s a big problem and people don’t know that, but that’s what I was there for, and we were working on some projects together to raise awareness and do some other things in that area.
G: That’s great.  We were saying before we went to break that you started out on this advocacy work and got in touch with the Governor after four months and you were talking about the fact that you really weren’t all together, but you had that energy that propelled you in that direction.
GM: Yes.  As I said, I really did not know what I was doing.  I just knew something had to be done and people would kind of help me along.  There were wonderful people who supported me and guided me somewhat and I’m pretty obstinate and just would not take no for an answer.  So I just kept pushing forward, moving forward, but I really was still in the midst of a deep, deep grief but again just knowing something had to be done.  And I’m still doing that work nine years later.
H: It’s wonderful because like you say, Gail, you’re preventing other kids from dying in fires, in university fires.
GM: Well, that’s what I’m told and actually all the universities in the State of Kentucky were required by law through, well, by mandate, excuse me, through my tenacity if you will, and again I am no one special.  My special part in life was being Michael and Melissa’s mother and I just felt so compelled to do this but when you know that there have been other fires and children have lived because there are now sprinklers in those dormitories, it’s not so much me that I’m thinking about.  It’s that Michael’s death did something positive or the result of his death did something positive as he wanted and would have wanted me to do to save other’s lives.  So that’s the good part of it.
G: I was reading something that was in the paper and one of the things it said that you said that dealing with the system has been pretty cruel.  Could you talk about the cruelty of that for those people who are out there going through this right now?  How did you deal with that and what did you mean by that?
GM: Well, it was something that probably was – I mean, of course, the death of Michael was the hardest thing I’ve ever had to deal with in my life and continue to deal with at nine years later because the impact to your life, you have to incorporate that in your living and nothing is the same.  And those that think you want to get back to the same, please, that’s a dream that’s not going to be because nothing is the same as it was before their child died.  But what I dealt with with the legal system and so forth, it was a harsh, cruel reality that it’s a business and they want you to settle oftentimes.  They’re not there to find out really because what happened to Michael would have set legal precedence because of his disabilities, because of our fight to get him out of the dorm.  But no one wanted to spend that amount of time and energy and money to fight for so many years to end up possibly in the Supreme Court and it was just very, very discerning to me that this – I was kind of brought back down to a place I would not want anyone to be, a very low place.
G: What my friends tell us through the show and things that have been through the whole legal system is that if you’re looking for justice and fairness and all that, you don’t find the level that you want.  It’s not that our system isn’t working, but you don’t find the level of satisfaction.  Even people who get a judgment in their favor and all that, they just don’t.  They’ve told me that afterward they don’t feel some great sense of relief and satisfaction.
GM: That’s absolutely true and my case I believe was probably a little different in that it would have taken so many years and set precedence because of dealing with a disabled child and the laws and things that deal with that.  And they’re kind of all over the books but yes, I do believe that there is no – the other people that have mentioned that there is no relief or satisfaction to what you think will happen when that judgment comes down.  It’s very empty.  It’s nothing that – It’s just
G: But what’s filling, I love this.  What’s really filling here is service.
H: Well, and being responsible for something, legislation so that other kids will not die this way, so that you feel like Michael’s death was not in vain.  He’s in a sense saving lives and doing as much in his death as he did in his life.
GM: Exactly.  And I just finished working with the Governor for almost an entire year, about eight months.  I live in Florida, but I was asked to be the Chair of the Governor’s task force on campus safety in the State of Kentucky so I came to Kentucky and did that and gave the report to the Governor in September.  And it was amazing that that work as I said is still going on.
G: And it’s broadened with campus safety, too.
GM Yes, it is.  It really has.
G: So it’s very broad.
GM That’s what we addressed was a very comprehensive look at campus safety, not just fire.  So that was very enlightening but it is a good thing, I think, for any parent to be able to do something like that.  And people say to me oh, well, you’re doing this for – I’m not doing it for Michael anymore.  I can’t save Michael but we can save other children.
G: Well, Gail, I know you’re going to have to leave us in a few minutes and maybe you’re going to stay for one more break?
GM I have about 10 or 12 more minutes.
G: Okay, good.  We’ll go to break and then we’ll come back and talk to you some more, but could you say a little bit about what you’re doing right now that you’ve had a friend lose a child and –
GM Well, actually, where I’m going today for the funeral, you mean?
G: Um-hm.
GM It’s actually good friends of mine that when I came to Kentucky and really had just lost it, was basically coming unglued at the Capitol.  I was crying because they were marking up the bill which means taking very important parts out of it initially.  And I was just really pretty much falling apart and this woman named Carolyn Kinman came to my aid and just kind of picked me up off the floor literally and took me to the women’s room and helped me get myself together and asked me if I would like to come to her home for a meal.  And I have been close friends, we are so different but her heart and the wonder of her and her family have been such a support and love for me and mine for them.  And Carolyn’s dear husband just passed away just a couple of days ago so I’m here back in Kentucky from Florida for his funeral and I’ll be speaking at his funeral today.
G: Well, you’re wonderful to come on this show with all that going on and we certainly want to give her our best wishes.  We’re going to go to break now and when we come back I thought we might just talk about having a twin die.  Heidi and I are very interested in that.  Heidi’s worked with some people in that area so when we come back from break,we’ll be talking more to Gail Minger and please get to us through www.thegriefblog.com and we would love to have you give holiday information.  Give us your favorite recipes, your pictures, your stories, give us your funniest Christmas.  Send us a picture of your child and let’s really keep the blog going during the Christmas season with ideas and comments.  You can give us a recipe, a poem or whatever you would like.  Please stay tuned for more.
Well, Gail, this is going to be our last break because as you were telling our audience, you’re going to be leaving us.  Heidi and I will be on after that.  You’re heading to speak to a funeral today and we certainly appreciate your being on this show.  One of the things that we wanted to say is if you go to our blog, www.thegriefblog.com, that Gail’s going to be sending us some information about her thoughts on the holidays and hopefully a picture of Michael and I think there’s one on there with our ecard now, but maybe something Christmassy with Michael.  And we also wanted to make sure that people could get in touch with you, Gail.  How would they do that?
GM: Well, they’re welcome to call my cell phone number.  It’s area code 850-621-5161 and my email address at this point, it’s my general email is ming4fam@aol.com. 
G: Well, thank you.  And we wanted to also mention because we put in the beginning of this about Michael having a twin sister, Melissa.  Could you talk about twins and do you think there’s been anything unique about this?
GM: Well, absolutely.  Michael and Melissa were very, very close.  Melissa was my more independent child.  Michael was one that really loved his mother and sister and all that we’d do for him.  He was very willing to let us do a lot, but he just looked up to her as just knowing everything.  He just thought the world of her and was just very, very close.  They were very close even as teenagers.  Lightning frightened Melissa.  She’d go jump and get close to him and he would calm her and that kind of thing and they just shared so many things.  And Melissa spoke at Michael’s funeral and said part of me is gone, and I believe that she really, truly feels like that.  She deals with a specific loneliness that I know exists because of the death of her twin brother.
H: And that’s what the research shows as well as people I’ve talked to that have been twins.  They literally feel like a limb has been severed.  That part of them is gone.
GM: Right.  That she absolutely feels like that and I hope she has the opportunity to call in in just a little bit.  She is, as I mentioned, a doctor of dental medicine, is in a residency program and actually has patients, but between them today she really wanted to participate and call in so I’m hoping she’ll have that opportunity.
H: And I think that in you talking about what she’s gone on to do with her life in a doctoral dentistry program is showing the audience that even though our siblings have died, our lives go on and yes, it’s devastating for us but our lives are not destroyed forever.  And I think Melissa is an example of it.  She has gone on to do wonderful things in her life and probably will carry Michael with her forever.
GM: Oh, absolutely.  And Michael was helping her find colleges and universities that had medical programs because in his heart he knew that’s what she was going to do and had every confidence that she would reach that goal someday and she certainly did.  It was a lot of hard work.  Of course when Michael passed away when he was 19 and they were in their sophomore years of college, they were at different colleges, but she really struggled with being able to focus on her work.  But she was in a small private school and they were very kind to help her through that and support her, but the challenges were great.
G: I was wondering, was she in a dorm and was that scary for you?
GM: Yes, she was in a dorm but her school was much older than the university Michael went to and they had their people – after hearing about her twin brother’s – loss come through and actually check everything again to make sure everything was working.  There were a couple of issues with some windows that had been painted shut by some of the students and they made sure all of that was – 
G: Now did you ask them to do that or did they just do it on their own?
GM: They did it on their own because it was quite big news and Melissa being on campus, it was a very small private school and so everyone knew.  I mean the security people, the president of the school, everyone knew.  All of her faculty, they would call her and check on her.  I don’t think she could have been any better placed with this kind of thing going on in her life.  So but yes, they did it on their own.
G: What were you going to say, Heidi?
H: I was just saying what a nurturing environment when I hear what Gail’s saying.
G: Yeah, Heidi went to a very big school.  I don’t think you got nurtured that much, did you?
H: No, I had the opposite experience actually.  Yeah, I really did.  I think this speaks to the smallness of that school, but I had the experience where after two weeks of being out of classes my professors expected me to get going and it’s been two weeks and you need to get over it and you need to hand in the assignments and you need to move forward.  And for me, I couldn’t, and so I had to take a semester off because it was too much for me to handle.
GM: Well, Melissa got into that same place, Heidi, and she actually – The university personnel that I had been corresponding with, we talked a lot and they said that they would give her a medical leave if indeed.  And she did take that in one class because her ability to focus, it was a challenging class.  I believe it was calculus and it was a challenging class and she was not able to focus.  She would find herself gazing out the window and this was not her typical way of behaving.  And so they were very good to her and worked with her and her grades did suffer.  But believe me, it’s amazing to me.  Melissa went on and she enjoys leadership roles and she made a place for herself throughout her college career in leadership.  In fact she got into this residency program wondering how did I ever get in here?  I was not in the top part of my class.  And it’s because of her leadership and what the professors said about her as a human being that propelled her into where she is today.
H: She’s overcome great adversity.  She’s overcome the death of her twin.
GM: And I think they all recognized that and that was a plus for her and she also has gone on mission trips and gives back to kids that are less fortunate and that was her brother’s thing.  And so she’s taken on some of his roles.  Not even on purpose, she just does them now and it’s just really amazing sometimes.  Michael had allergies.  She didn’t.  She has allergies now.  I don’t know anything about that but it’s kind of interesting.
H: It is interesting that we take on the roles of our sibling.
GM: Some of those kinds of things have happened.
G: I wanted to ask you, Gail, do you think the fact that Michael did have some disabilities and special needs, do you think that made you closer to him?
GM: Yes, it did.  I spent an inordinate amount of time with him for two reasons, his disabilities and not wanting him to fall through the cracks in our educational system, and so I would work doubly hard with him and he wanted to achieve.  He never fought.  We got tutors and things.  We were able to do that for him and that was very important, and then secondly with his beautiful voice, a God-given talent, we wanted to nurture that because that made him special.  And he loved that because he knew he had areas that he struggled in, but this was something that he could do and it was a beautiful thing.
G: And for our audience out there who have had disabled kids or kids who have special challenges that have died, that’s a big loss of a role because there’s a lot of work involved with that and all of a sudden it’s gone. 
GM: Not many people have recognized that, Gloria, and thank you so much for saying that to me today because that’s exactly true.  It was hard for me to even admit but in an hour of a day I would guess that I spent 35 minutes of that hour working with, thinking about, preparing for things for Michael, and my husband and Melissa were after that.  They got the rest of the time left over and I felt pretty guilty about that at times, but Melissa said the most wonderful thing to me:  Mom, we didn’t know we weren’t going to have him that long and I’m so glad that you did spend that time, all of that extra time with him.  But you’re right, and I think that time that I devoted to him during his life, I transferred that to the advocacy that I do now.  It just seems so natural, but Melissa – I also told her when she was a child that if Mom is ignoring you and you feel that, please let me know.  And she did.  She was very vocal about things like that.
H: It also sounds like Melissa gave a lot to her brother because he needed that and she kind of stepped in and showed him how to do things and helped him with things.
GM: Absolutely.  She was a great guide for him in many areas, and he just I wouldn’t want to say worshipped her but it was close to that.  He just thought she was it and he just thought she hung the moon as they say and was so smart and just everything.  He just loved his – and she wasn’t a big sister, she was his twin sister, but she was a few minutes older.
G: I don’t want to keep you and I just want to thank you so much for being on the show today.  I’m just impressed with your advocacy and it’s really wonderful.  Do you have something you’d like to leave our audience with about any thoughts?
GM: Well, I’d like to say to all parents who may be experiencing this devastating time in their life, to have hope.  Don’t lose hope, and it’s amazing how the people you will meet and the things that will come to you in front of you, the ways that you may hear your children speaking to you, and listen to that.  Listen for those things.  Listen to the birds sing.  Enjoy the smell of the flowers.  All the things that we are too busy to enjoy.  Michael showed me and many others that it’s important to think of all those things and take in all of the beautiful world around you.  But to please not give up hope and to look to others as this show provides who have gone through it, that we are so willing, so many of us out here are so willing to help in any way we can.  Just to answer a simple question and I would encourage you to ask those questions and do whatever makes you feel better.  Nothing is too out there, and I think that’s important for people to know.
G: Right.  Heidi, do you have anything you want to say to Gail before she leaves?
H: I just want to thank Gail for everything she’s done and for this legislation, the Michael Minger Act.  Thank you so much for helping save lives.
GM Well, thank you very much for having me on.
G: Thanks, Gail, and it’s time for us to go to break now and Heidi and I will be back with more.  You can go to our blog, www.thegriefblog.com.  Don’t forget The Compassionate Friends worldwide candle lighting on December 9th.  You can go to www.thecompassionatefriends.org website and find out where the candle lighting is in your area.  Stay tuned for more.
Well, Gail was a pretty amazing guest, wasn’t she?
H: She absolutely was and she’s done so much for people as far as legislation around fires, etc.
G: Yeah, I was really fascinated with the fact that she started her advocacy in four months.
H: Yeah, it is amazing that she was able to do that and like she said, she didn’t really know what she was doing and she didn’t even know where she got her strength and maybe part of that was through Michael and through his memory.
G: Yeah, and she got a hold of the Governor and went out and did that kind of action.  Very interesting.
H: And she said sometimes it’s good when you don’t know how much work it’s going to take or you’re naïve because you just go for it and you don’t think about how difficult it might be to get a hold of the Governor.  You just do it.
G: Yeah.  It’s amazing.  And I’ve been interested in people starting foundations and all this kind of thing quite early and then other folks wait until later.
H: Right.  And like you said, it’s so individual how long we wait.  And when it’s a good time for us and sometimes you get into things and you do them and you realize this was too soon.  I need to stop or I take a break because I didn’t realize that this is too soon.  I remember when Scott died in April and I was supposed to go on Colorado Outward Bound.  It’s a survival program in Colorado and that was in July and I really thought about should I go?  Should I not go?  And I decided to go because Scott had gone the year before and he had really told me it was amazing and I was there for his birthday.  And it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done, the most challenging thing I’ve ever done because emotionally and psychologically I was grieving.  And it was the best thing I could have done as far as healing because it forced me to do something and achieve something and I felt like I was carrying him with me through the program.  And I felt like it was something he would have wanted me to do so even though it was only three months later, for me that’s where I needed to be.
G: Yeah, before Scott died I was in the field of grief and loss because I was a clinical nursing consultant at the University of Rochester Medical Center and I worked on the whole surgical unit.  I was on call all the time and I had all these little pat things because I knew the field.  This is what you’ll be doing this year.  This is what you’ll be doing next and you should be going – we were in the Kubler Ross thing – anger, denial, all that kind of thing – and now I just realized that I would have told Gail, had I seen her as a therapist, you know, you really ought to wait before you get in touch with the Governor.
H: Right, you should wait at least a year.  That’s what people a lot of times say.
G: Yeah, wait for a year before you get in touch with the Governor.
H: And while that advice might be good for some people, for others that’s not good.  They need to do what they feel good about doing immediately.  I remember when I was in Outward Bound, people really had judgments.  How could you be here three months after your brother died?  You shouldn’t be doing this.  You shouldn’t be here.  And I just feel like everyone’s on their own course and you shouldn’t judge other people.
G: Yeah, it reminds me of the woman we had on the show who got married after seven months.  Remember, her husband was murdered.  She got married after seven months and there’s just no pat thing. 
H: And she’s been happily married for years.
G: Yeah, she’s been happily married for years and she said there was a huge amount of judgment from her community and from her friends and whatever, and she was advised not to do it.
H: Well, there’s also judgment, too, when people lose a child if they get pregnant or decide to have another child or adopt.  There’s judgment on how long they should do that or if they should do that and again, I don’t think there should be judgment.  We’re each individuals and we each have our own path.
G: Yeah, and I think if we listen for it, we get inspiration on what we should be doing now.  But I think you made a very good point, Heidi.  Because you decide to take action doesn’t mean you can’t say I’m not going to do it.
H: Right, once you start doing it, you might realize it’s not the right time.
G: That it wasn’t the right time that you thought it was or it wasn’t, so if you want to challenge yourself and go out a little bit, do it and, because you have the right not to.
H: And the thing is you’ll know if it’s the wrong time because if it makes you feel worse then that means it’s too soon for you and if it makes you feel better, that means okay, this is making me feel better, I’m going to keep moving forward in doing it.
G: I’ve got something to get out of bed for.  One of the problems can be, though, we had a case.  French Smith who was on the show, he was doing a lawsuit regarding his son and his wife.  He talks about it on the show.  His wife could not deal with it and so he had to stop it even though he wanted to do it.
H: Because he wasn’t home enough for her, is that right?
G: No, she didn’t like the court case and they tried to say that their son was a bad person and that kind of thing in the court.
H: Well, that’s hard and that brings up the whole point that we’ve talked about many times on the show about how couples often grieve differently and family members grieve differently and what happens in those cases.
G: Yes, and you obviously have to take other family members into consideration.
H: And sometimes we have to compromise.
G: Yeah, and sometimes that’s not easy because as I said, French really wanted to take it all the way through and they had to settle.  There was a lot of pressure to do a settlement from his wife.
H: And Gail was talking about that today, all the pressure to settle.
G: Yeah.
H: And I think she would have liked to see it to the end to the Supreme Court, etc., but there’s so much pressure to settle because of the time constraints and the money involved and all those things that are involved in court.  People want to settle those cases.
G: However, again as Gail and I talked about even people that I know that have gone through and won the cases, they don’t feel a great sense of satisfaction after.  I mean they’re happy that they did it or whatever, but it’s not closure.
H: Well, I think the hard thing is even after the case is ended and the case is closed, your child and your sibling is never returning.
G: That’s right.
H: And they’re not walking in the door even after you go home from the courtroom for the last time.  You go home to an empty house without them.  And that’s hard.
G: Yeah, it’s always hard.  no matter what you do, if you create websites, if you do this or that, they don’t come back.
H: And another thing I think is very hard, Mom, we’ve talked about this before.  If you’re involved in a court case where somebody murdered your child or your sibling and there’s no remorse by the person that did it, that’s very difficult.
G: Very, very difficult and they never admit it.  They say they didn’t do it or whatever.  But on a hopeful note, let’s talk about the continuing bonds and end the show on that, Heidi.
H: Okay.
G: The thing is that you will continue your bond with the child.  It doesn’t bring them back but you have all the memories, you have the scrapbooks, you have all the things.  They’re part of you.  They’re part of your life.
H: Absolutely, and you can gain so much strength from someone that you’ve loved that has died.  I was thinking about Melissa in dental school and how tough that is and how I know that she’s got to carry, look at Michael and have him with her when times are tough.  When I wrote my doctoral dissertation and I wrote it on the sudden death of a sibling, it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done I mean outside of losing my brother which was ten times harder.  But I had Scott’s picture right there by my computer because he gave me strength every day and I said I’m doing this for myself and for him and I’m going to get through this.  And I really carried him through the doctorate with me.
G: Or he carried you.
H: Or he carried me, right.  And he gave me strength.  He gave me so much strength.
G: Yeah.  Wonderful.  Well, with the continuing bonds I want to remind you about the Worldwide Candle Lighting on December 9th and go on The Compassionate Friends website and find out where there’s a candle lighting in your area and if you can’t join us in a candle lighting, light a candle yourself 7:00 o’clock in the evening on December 9th.  It’s time for us to close our show now and next week we’re going to talk about “Trauma and Bereavement of Children in Adolescence, Helping our Families Grow after a Loss.”  And we’re going to have Dr. Norman J. Fried on the show.  He’s a clinical psychologist and Director of Psychosocial Services for Winthrop University Hospital in Long Island.  This show is archived on our website, www.thegriefblog.com as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.com website.  Please stay tuned to hear more next week and Heidi, we’ll be talking to you next week.
H: Okay, Mom.  Have a good week and I just wanted to say that Michael is gone but not forgotten.  He lives on in the memories of all those that he’s touched and I want to thank Gail for all the work she’s done.